So Mike Mussina, after finally winning 20, has decided to retire. And wasn't his 20th the last win at Yankee Stadium? Too lazy to look it up. Anyways, good for Moose.
When the time comes, I'm sure Op and I will go a few rounds re: whether or not Moose belongs in the Hall of Fame. And maybe a few more on how much I use "re:" too many times.
I consider myself a VERY hard marker when it comes to the Hall of Fame. I'm of the belief that such a player should transcend his own sport - in other words my criteria is pretty much "has Sistatime! ever heard of this person?" Whenever is comes down to two dudes from Elias Sport Bureau playing "Dueling Stats," I have my doubts re: a player's merit to be a Hall of Famer.
That said, if I had a vote, I would vote "no" for Moose. He's been a tremendously solid, VERY good pitcher for 18 years. 117 wins over .500 is HOF-worthy, and his having done it during the Golden Age of 'Roids AND in the tree-trunk swinging AL East makes it all that much more impressive.
But no batter ever stayed up at night "oh shit, I'm facing Moose tomorrow..." Nobody made a point of bringing their kid to the park to "witness the Great Mussina." He was never dominant, or feared, which does mean something here. If it's remotely possible to have a quiet 270 wins, he came pretty close. Just doesn't feel like a HOF to me.
HOWEVER, while I would hafta vote no, I would not argue against him either. If you wanted to vote yes for him that's fine, I wouldn't argue. And if he got in, I'd be happy for him, I'll watch his speech and applaud. There's some players who have gotten in that I've been apoplectic about, but Moose won't be one of them.
10 comments:
I liked him as an Oriole, I loved him as a Yankee, but he doesnt belong in the HOF.
PS+ One of the best games ever was when he came in to clean up after Roger Roidboy Clemens in Game 7 of the ALCS in 2003. A great, great performance.
HOF, but obviously not first ballot...let him wait a little but not as long as Art Monk. The winning percentage is too strong even if he didn't get the ring or the no hitter. And just being a gold glover, class act and knowing when to leave should merit consideration.
im also against "if he hangs around on the ballot long enough he'll get voted in" theory.
actually i think i pretty much disagree with every voting principle there is nowadays. (see the "we cant have a year w/no inductees" nonsense) ah well. :)
most people (including me) seem to have that "impact" criterion. no one feared moose. that said i saw him get shelled in fla before he made the team and i saw him strike out 16 indians in the playoffs.
so what, if you are not first ballot then that's it? Puhleeze. Dude won 270 games and only lost 153. So what if he wasn't intimidating or people weren't scared to face him. He won. That's what matters. Catfish Hunter didn't intimidate anyone either.
Mussina has better percentage than Gibson, Hunter, Drysdale, Jenkins...want me to go on.
Tell you this, he deserves to be in there more than Phil Niekro or Gaylord Perry.
its the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Very Good Gutty Players.
the HOF has gotten way too diluted. like baseball itself, actually.
its the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Very Good Gutty Players.
the HOF has gotten way too diluted. like baseball itself, actually.
Look, I admire the high standards, but I would argue that winning 270 games from 1990 to 2008 is the equivalant of 325 from 1960 to 1978
I hate what baseball has become--6 innings is a complete game, etc. but if you are going to talk about Mariano being better than Goose (complete bullshit, btw), then Moose goes in the hall!
and just the number of losses, only 153, is amazing.
The problem is, when comparisons get made with current residents of Cooperstown, the criteria becomes murky, since there are guys in there with weaker numbers than Moose. So, the question goes from "How worthy is he?" to "Why not?"
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